Peterloo Latest Update 06/11/2011
Posted: November 7, 2011 Filed under: c1nf, Comment is not Free, Peterloo | Tags: c1nf, Comment is not Free, otmp, OTMPeterloo, peterloo Comments Off on Peterloo Latest Update 06/11/2011We have had the definitive answer back from Alan Rusbridger – here it is in full:
Thank you for both your correspondence and for your patience in waiting for a response to your concerns about the Guardian’s stance regarding the Liberal Democrats. As I said in an open thread just before the 2010 election, the Guardian is the only national newspaper with no proprietor and is free from any party political allegiance. At the moment of an election we will nail our colours to the mast for what we think, based on the Guardian’s values, offers the best hope to the country (and since 1945, we’ve come out for all three main parties) but thereafter it’s our role to scrutinize those with power and influence and to offer the best analysis we can of their plans and actions.
The paper’s stance on any issue is found openly in the leaders’ columns and beyond that page columnists write as they think; there is no “line” our journalists have to take and we are proud to welcome a greater range of contributor opinion than, I believe, any other newspaper. Just as importantly we offer no shortage of ways for people to challenge what they find in our pages in print and online. Readers have the opportunity to share their views on each and every leader, as well as columns on Comment is free, which over the past five years has become a vibrant hub for debate and dissent. As you know, Polly Toynbee addressed the issue of the Guardian’s support for the Liberal Democrats only a month or so ago (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/16/labour-lib-dems-future-pact?INTCMP=SRCH) and more than 700 people responded.
I note what your group is saying about what it perceives to be a “continuing backing of the Liberal Democrats”. It’s subjective of course but I’ve done a quick review of all the leader articles published since the one to which you refer in May 2011, and of the 11 that significantly concern the Liberal Democrats, none — even where they give due credit — could be described as offering unalloyed approval. They variously strike notes of concern, discomfort, an urging to do better, or direct criticism. One is perhaps neutral.
I hope this helps explain the position as I see it. Your continuing thoughts on this are always welcome whether in debate on Cif and elsewhere on guardian.co.uk or directly to me. We’d prefer, however, not to launch an open thread at the moment, simply because there are many important issues readers want to discuss with us and we’re currently exploring a new “open” initiative for making this happen.
Kind regards
Alan Rusbridger
It’s a rather circuitous reply but in short, they’re happy with the editorial policy as it is.
At the outset of the campaign we made a conscious decision to give the Guardian a chance. Our strategy was to follow 2 distinct courses simultaneously, one following through conventional channels presenting the misgivings of political and financial churnalism, the other being activism through social media.
With the above answer it means the strand following conventional channels has now reached its termination. It also means the campaign will be broadening it’s focus – no longer concentrating solely on the Guardian – but on the Uk media itself.
The change in scale means the Peterloo campaign will be run from it’s own blog here:
http://otmpeterloo.wordpress.com
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Peterloo customisers – the knockers.
Posted: October 31, 2011 Filed under: c1nf, Comment is not Free, Peterloo, Politics, Social Trends | Tags: Austerity, c1nf, Comment is not Free, peterloo, peterloo avatars, politics Comments Off on Peterloo customisers – the knockers.And of course the extended jamming session goes on – below is a selection of custom avatars that I’ve come across on my CiF travels that are celebrating riffing on the Peterloo theme – mouseover the images for the creator’s name. I’ll add in more as I come across them or I get them pointed out to me, but so far the Portaloo Massacre is my favourite.
Feel inspired? Download the photoshop templates for easy customisation. Just want a ready made? Originals, all new versions and the photoshop templates here:
Peterloo avatars – scroll down after clicking
Wondering what this is all about?
The Peterloo avatar is being used on the comments section of the Guardian newspaper by posters .
Why Peterloo?
The Peterloo massacre was an attempt to kill, literally, a pro democracy march. The fact cavalry charges and unsheathed sabres were used against women and children provoked such horror that the Guardian newspaper was born to give a voice to the voiceless.
The Guardian’s editorial policy seems to be raising questions as it often seems to report facts without attempting to explain the importance of the issues for groups affected – like the current demonisation of people who have disabilites and claim welfare by the media, something that the Guardian should be doing more about. How can it be critical of right-wing policies yet supportive of the Lib-Dems?
It’s also worth stressing that Peterloo is happening because people care enough about the Guardian, to want to try to make it better.
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Peterloo avatars update
Posted: October 19, 2011 Filed under: c1nf, Comment is not Free, Peterloo, Politics, Social Trends | Tags: Austerity, c1nf, Comment is not Free, peterloo, peterloo avatars, politics 4 Comments
The Pererloo campaign seems to have really taken off – a success due to the hands of many – hence the theme of ripples in the latest round of avatars above.
So I think it’s a good time to take stock of what we’ve achieved so far and where we’re going with this.
Firstly we identified one of the issues as bringing up the topic of the Guardian’s political direction, as this, almost ineveitably, seemed to involve moderation of comments and user accounts. As such it seemed logical that before we could start to bring up the issue of the Guardian’s politcs, we had to first ensure there could be an open and free environment in which to discuss it.
Lightacandle contacted Liz Forgan, the Chair of the Scott Trust
Thank you for your email which has been forwarded to me as Chair of the Scott Trust.
I am afraid that you misunderstand the role of the Trust in respect of the editorial views and content of the Guardian. It is our job to safeguard the independence of the editor, not to intervene in any way in his editorial decisions. It is this which marks the Guardian out from most other journalistic enterprises and it is a discipline which we guard very strictly.
We attend to the underlying values of the paper and the company, to ensure that the ethical standards we set are being upheld. The leader line on any given issue is a matter for the editor and the paper’s attitude to the coalition is not something the Trust would ever discuss.
As you yourself illustrate, a wide range of opinion is available to readers of the Guardian both in the paper and on line and, though there will always be fierce argument among both staff and readers about all kinds of issues, the proper place for that to be aired is in Cif or through the Readers’ Editor.
Yours sincerely
Liz Forgan
The reply was helpful in highlighting the Guardian’s position on the role of Comment is Free and the Reader’s editor.
Then we broached the subject in CiF higlighting the contradictions in the way the moderators had been responding to posters bringing up the political line the Guardian took on given subjects, effectively silencing the debate -it was a busy thread so I’ve linked in the key posts in chronological order:
CarlilesGhost14 October 2011 11:28AM
OliverLaughland –
“Let me know again.”
I’m surprised you haven’t noticed the requests on the ‘Ideas for’ thread from a number of commenters over the past week or so for articles and debates on the political positioning of the Guardian, and moderation policy on CiF.
Personally I think these are perfectly reasonable requests, and I must admit I don’t understand why the Guardian doesn’t seem to be able to even acknowledge them.
DigbyChickenCeasar 14 October 2011 11:47AM
@Oliver
I’d very much like to see the nature of interactivity in sites like this discussed. I’d even write it if no one else was willing:
If the ability to freely and truthfully report what’s going on without being hindered by supporting one side or another is what makes that interactivity work isn’t it time to have a debate about whether the comments sections are an extension of the static pages rather than the improvised free flow that interactivity brings – in this day and age when everyone has almost instantaneous access to data – anyone can break a story. Isn’t that the power of web 2.0?TROOCOST14 October 2011 11:57AM
CarlilesGhost 14 October 2011 11:28AM
OliverLaughland –“Let me know again.”
I’m surprised you haven’t noticed the requests on the ‘Ideas for’ thread from a number of commenters over the past week or so for articles and debates on the political positioning of the Guardian, and moderation policy on CiF.
Personally I think these are perfectly reasonable requests, and I must admit I don’t understand why the Guardian doesn’t seem to be able to even acknowledge them.
DigbyChickenCeasar 14 October 2011 11:47AM
@OliverI’d very much like to see the nature of interactivity in sites like this discussed. I’d even write it if no one else was willing:
If the ability to freely and truthfully report what’s going on without being hindered by supporting one side or another is what makes that interactivity work isn’t it time to have a debate about whether the comments sections are an extension of the static pages rather than the improvised free flow that interactivity brings – in this day and age when everyone has almost instantaneous access to data – anyone can break a story. Isn’t that the power of web 2.0?
Hi Oliver,
i was going to post about these issues,but these two posters have done a more intelligent job than i ever could.I respectfully ask,if it’s possible to get an answer…..sometime soon.
Thank you.
OliverLaughland 14 October 2011 12:15PM
@TROOCOST
I’m going to refer you to David Shariatmadari’s comments yesterday.@OliverLaughland
David Shariatmadari’s comments yesterday don’t seem to address the issue of following the appearances of interactivity
Something I highlighted in response David Shariatmadari’s comments reguarding the live blogs
Just seeing that:
*
DigbyChickenCeasar13 October 2011 8:16PM
Kizbot
Let’s not confuse the comment pages such as cif with the News pages though. Cif isn’t the whole of the graun. It’s just one section. I don’t come to cif for information but comment. That’s not to say, though, that I haven’t got criticisms myself on some of the analysis.. eg, a lot of the people who’ve written comment about the Greek crisis (a major interest for me) have written utter tosh.. But, I can argue against it BTL.. which I do. Where else can you do that? Certainly not on the torygraph!I’m not – can I ask you to read the questions I posted earlier – here I’ll link them in for you
http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/12821866
You’ll notice I’m talking about live coverage of the conferences, which were supposed to be interactive.I asked specific questions during the Liberal one, one of which was actually picked up and given to the reporters to answer – no answer was given, while other questions handed in after mine were. My questions to do with the links between Liberal funding and it’s whole hearted support of NHS reforms. Topical at the time. Oh and now I should think.
And the person who was heading up the team of journalists supplying the live blog recently left to go work as a pr officer somewhere.
I’ll happily link in what those questions were should you care to read them.
What question was it, again? I did put a lot of them to our writers, and some were replied to, some were not.
@JessicaReed
btw is there a good way to format questions so they get picked up?
I posted the questions on C&C Alpha several times yesterday, and once to day to see it finally taken up when someone else re-posted it, so perhaps I wasn’t being clear enough, that I wasn’t making a general comment on the thread?
19 September 2011 6:54AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/1246370018 September 2011 7:49PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/1246022818 September 2011 7:05PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/1245973418 September 2011 3:29PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/1245773618 September 2011 10:37AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/1245472718 September 2011 9:09AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/12453817http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/12472005
to which you replied
JessicaReed 19 September 2011 4:03PM
DigbyChickenCeasar – give writers a bit of time, will ya? They’re running around and not glued to their computers all the time. I sent them the question, hopefully they’ll reply when they have a minute.
Yes I remember now. I did put the question to Julian, who dodn’t know enough to comment, and then the second or third day Polly Toynbee came in the thread and wrote something about the whole thing, although it wasn’t specifically about the case, which I don’t think she was an expert at.
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/12833293
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/12833512
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/12834028
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/12833683
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/12834783
http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/12835129
Having cleared the way to freely discuss the issue of the political direction of the Guardian, we’ve since sent a letter as to Alan Rusbridger asking for an open debate about the issue of its rightwards swing
Looking for the original Avatars?
How to use these
– right click on the image of your choice and save it to your computer
– got to your CiF profile click Edit Avatar (under your existing one)
– click on the browse button and in the area marked “Upload an avatar”
and navigate to the file you downloaded, select it and click “upload”
and that’s it – it won’t show up immediately but just be patient.
Want to make your own and get into the Peterloo avatar customiser’s gallery
I’ve knocked out a Photoshop pdf, where the different elements are in layers for easy customisation which you can get from here:
note: sorry – this only works with photoshop I’m afraid, Gimp will load it as a flat layerless image, contact me through the https://c1nf.wordpress.com/youve-got-to-see-this/ form if you want a psd.
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Beyond Peterloo
Posted: October 15, 2011 Filed under: c1nf, Comment is not Free, Peterloo | Tags: c1nf, peterloo, politics 1 Comment
All Peterloo posts? click here.
There’s something else I love about the internet – the fact it levels the playing field and removes the gate keepers. Here’s an anecdote that I was emailed recently
There were about twenty people on the bus including the driver and myself. I already knew the bus driver as he was once (rather too long ago!) the socialist mayor of Havant. The bus was on its way to a village which is actually in West Sussex.
It started with one elderly lady complaining about the forthcoming cuts in the bus service and to the modification of the route.
Another lady then chimed in with a complaint about things being done without consultation. From there I remarked that it wasn’t just in Havant that people’s views weren’t being consulted.
An elderly gentleman then agreed, saying that the cuts in the NHS hadn’t been voted for but were going ahead. Driver said there were some good articles about that in the Guardian.
Second lady then said ‘oh, yes, and there’s that group – the Rainbow Coalition – trying to find out why the Guardian is still backing the LibDems when they’ve betrayed all their voters so many times already, but the Guardian isn’t replying to them. I remarked that there were several threads to that particular discussion but that it seemed there was some censuring of comments going on, by the paper, also that the Rainbow Coalition were reminding the Guardian about its origins in Manchester after the Peterloo Massacre.
People seemed to be interested in going on talking, but at that point I had to get off the bus as it had reached my stop.
Every time I read this it just bows me away. That this has reached out and touched people beyond the confines of the Guardian and CiF – real ripples.
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Peterloo customisers
Posted: October 13, 2011 Filed under: c1nf, Comment is not Free, Peterloo, Politics, Social Trends | Tags: Austerity, c1nf, Comment is not Free, peterloo, peterloo avatars, politics 63 CommentsOne of the great things about the internet is, it’s like an extended jamming session. People pick up ideas and run with them doing their own thing. Below is a selection of custom avatars that I’ve come across on my CiF travels – mouseover the images for the creator’s name.
Feel inspired? Download the photoshop templates for easy customisation. Just want a ready made? Originals, all new versions and the photoshop templates here:
https://c1nf.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/peterloo-avatars-update/
Wondering what this is all about?
The Peterloo avatar is being used on the comments section of the Guardian newspaper by posters .
Why Peterloo?
The Peterloo massacre was an attempt to kill, literally, a pro democracy march. The fact cavalry charges and unsheathed sabres were used against women and children provoked such horror that the Guardian newspaper was born to give a voice to the voiceless.
The editorial policy of late has been puzzling and raises questions on the amount of trust that can be placed in the Guardian’s journalistic integrity remaining intact – how can it be critical of right-wing policies yet supportive of the Lib-Dems.
The other issue is the appearance of supporting the free flowing spirit of web 2.0, while falling down on the practicalities.
Which, in all fairness the Guardian has listened to and acted upon:
PhilipOltermann 14 October 2011 3:05PM
Thanks for your response. Your point about talking about mutualisation being one thing, and actually engaging with readers’ comments being another: completely taken. And if you think it can sometimes look hypocritical from a readers’ perspective, again, I think that’s a fair point.
All I would like you to appreciate is that making the news gathering more open to readers is a process that will take some time. It means changing the habits of a lot of people. I know a lot of journalists who worry that they don’t have time to properly check their facts and follow minor leads because they have to now monitor Twitter, Facebook and comment threads. That’s not to say they won’t get the balance right eventually. But the point is: you can’t just change a switch from one day to the next. And while I do believe that some areas of journalism are very suited to ‘open’ journalism (e.g. comment, Datablog, liveblog of the riots coverage), others are less so (e.g. investigative, ‘behind the scenes’ stuff).
The rolling comment blog was an experiment: some bits worked (we had a really good discussion in the Labour conference thread about what sort of poll lead Labour would need now in order to win the election), but other bits really didn’t. More than happy to take your criticism on board there.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/12835129
Peterloo is happening because people care enough about the Guardian, to want to try to make it better.
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Peterloo update
Posted: October 11, 2011 Filed under: c1nf, Comment is not Free, Peterloo, Politics, Social Trends | Tags: Austerity, authoritarianism, c1nf, Comment is not Free, peterloo, politics 2 CommentsI’d like to say a big thank you to Light a Carrot for looking after the blog and particularly for this beautifully eloquent post. Having been more out of touch than I had intended I’ve been reading back over what I missed while I was away, and boy was it an exciting read.
I have to say it came as no great surprise that Julian Glover has decided to leave his job as journalist and chief leader writer of the Guardian,
and I wish him every success with his new venture as script writer for David Cameron – who is no doubt hoping Julian will help him to pick up those “lost liberals”.
It was however continually surprising that he was working for the Guardian. I say surprising as his career choices certainly would have indicated his heart lay elsewhere politically
Julian Glover is the Guardian’s chief leader writer since 2006. He launched the Guardian Unlimited Politics website ahead of the 2001 general election, before joining the paper’s news desk. He moved to report from Westminster in 2005. He worked with John Major on the former prime minister’s autobiography and at the Economist and on several BBC Radio documentaries.
http://www.ufollow.com/authors/julian.glover/
Of course now that he is gone does this mean we’ll be saddled with worse? Is that actually possible?
The feral beast: Glover digs in heels at Guardian
Sunday, 11 April 2010
News reaches me that Julian Glover, The Guardian’s token right-winger, is resisting writing leaders endorsing Labour in the election.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/the-feral-beast-glover-digs-in-heels-at-guardian-1941140.html
Don’t get me wrong I have no intentions of bashing Mr Glover. It is just so zeitgeisty, all this pretending to do the opposite of what you actually are doing. And yet.
It’s that feeling isn’t it – of making do as none of the choices you’re being given actually match what you want, and it’s that feeling of needing to do, something, that this gives rise to.
In short there is no other outlet in the established media that doesn’t already mouth the same Tory/Orange liberal Freidmanite agenda – and yet that same media outlet has been slowly flirting with the same New Labour/ Caring Conservative/Orange Liberalism. As an opinion it already has more than enough proponents, and it’s at the root of all the ills we face currently from the services being dismantled to the massive debt each one of us has hanging over us.
This is what’s behind the Peterloo Massacre avatars – a quick visual reminder of what people really want – a loud champion for democracy and our basic human rights to counter the backroom deals and debt slavery.
How to use these
– right click on the image of your choice and save it to your computer
– got to your CiF profile click Edit Avatar (under your existing one)
– click on the browse button and in the area marked “Upload an avatar”
and navigate to the file you downloaded, select it and click “upload”
and that’s it – it won’t show up immediately but just be patient.
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Our Peterloo
Posted: October 4, 2011 Filed under: c1nf, Comment is not Free, social media, Social Trends | Tags: authoritarianism, c1nf, Comment is not Free, peterloo, peterloo avatars 220 Comments
This has been a while in the brewer so bear with me while I lay this out.
We are living in times of bizarre through-the-looking-glass twists, where everything means its opposite. Where right is left and left is right, up is down, good is bad.
Where huge financial behemoths are allowed to grab countries and turn them upside down and shake them till their pennies drop.
The political language of left and right has no meaning any more as all of our parties are simply a distraction, while backroom brokers carve up our world and lives, about which we have no say.
Which brings me to The Guardian. It has a long history – set up in the aftermath of the Peterloo Massacre – a pro democracy, anti poverty rally that the establishment decided to silence with sabre wielding cavalry charges.
And here we are almost 200 years later facing encroachment of our democratic rights and facing indentured slavery while those that should be doing their utmost to protect our freedoms are standing idly by, and while the police are used to shield those that want our freedoms.
So here’s the thing – why is it the most incisive commentaries come not from the Guardian journalists and contributors but from those commenting on the omissions from the articles they write? Why is it politicians are given a soft ride at a time when we should be using any pressure we can to force them to face the issues for us, in a way that will benefit us, and not the self-interest groups that “donate” to them?
At what point does an article stop being an article and start being a commercial presentation?
At what point does a journalist stop being a journalist and simply become an astroturfer for his or her backer?
How many of the contrarians posting inflammatory comments are on the Guardian payroll?
Unfortunately the moderation policy doesn’t allow these issues to be discussed openly in CiF – the punishments varying from deletions through to total bans.
Is this the same Guardian? Perhaps it has just forgotten how far it has fallen.
Feel free to copy one of the graphics above and use it as your CiF avatar – it will cost you nothing, yet it is doing something – it is reminding the journalists to do their job.
How to use these
– right click on the image of your choice and save it to your computer
– got to your CiF profile click Edit Avatar (under your existing one)
– click on the browse button and in the area marked “Upload an avatar”
and navigate to the file you downloaded, select it and click “upload”
and that’s it – it won’t show up immediately but just be patient.
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Follow c1nf updates from twitter: Follow @c1nf
Comment is not Free 
Protected: Peterloo discussion 27/11/11 – 11/12/11
Posted: November 27, 2011 | Author: Sir Digby Chicken-Ceasar | Filed under: c1nf, Comment is not Free, Peterloo | Tags: c1nf, Comment is not Free, peterloo, peterloo archive | Enter your password to view comments.